On every episode of the Rebel Instinct, our team sits down with rebels from across the marketing landscape to share stories about bold moves they’ve taken as marketers. Subscribe for more.
Galen Ettlin:
You are listening to the Rebel Instinct Podcast by Act-On Software, for all the marketing innovators living outside the box, breaking molds, taking names. Welcome to the Rebel Instinct Podcast everybody. I’m Galen Ettlin with Act-On Software. Here again with my VP of marketing, Casey Munck and our guest today, Ben Kiker, with CMO and VP of Marketing experience across the board at places like DocuSign, Jive, Interwoven Siebel, and many more, and he’s now a performance coach helping teams crush their defining moments. He’s a rebel for a living, Casey.
Casey Munck:
Excellent. Well thanks for being here, Ben.
Ben Kiker:
You bet. Happy to be here.
Casey Munck:
Awesome. Well, after all that corporate experience that Galen just rattled off about your amazing resume, you decided to start your own coaching business. So what inspired that shift?
Ben Kiker:
The best way to describe it, Casey, is it was just a calling that I had. It was about eight years ago, and I was in transition from leaving a company in a CMO gig and I’d been interviewing for other CMO gigs and nothing was just grabbing my soul. Nothing was just going, oh, I got to go do that. And I’m from Texas, I was in Texas with my family over the holidays and I felt this internal tug to go coach. It’s one of the things that I always love to do. I have a great background, love, good experience in building and leading high performance teams and folks have always sought me out, both professionally and personally for feedback. And so I came back on January the first of 2015 and literally had a blank sheet of paper and said, I’m going to start my coaching practice. And that’s how it began eight years ago.
Galen Ettlin:
Now you talk about pushing people through those defining moments as I mentioned. What sort of things does that entail? What do you help them with? Just
Ben Kiker:
Helping people and teams enter 2023 with intention. And I’m sure that y’all have spent time thinking about that, both a business perspective, personal perspective, but what are those, I don’t know, three or four, maybe five big rocks that are the big things to go tackle and do in 2023. So definitely that’s a big defining moment. A lot of defining moments during the pandemic around transitions. People were wondering, is it time for me to go? And if I go, what does that look like and where do I go? Other defining moments could be stepping into a big new role and wanting to really maximize your opportunity for success of that role. It also could be, Hey, I’m in a big role and I’m struggling and I need help. Right? Otherwise I’m going to be looking for another role if I don’t get help. And then finally, just strategic decisions that any team faces. I just did a two day offsite with a marketing team, and you all appreciate this. They’re in the middle of their fiscal year. So doing a very quick look back to the first half of the year, but then more importantly going, what do we need to do? What are the adjustments that we need to make going into the back half of the year to really make sure that we crush it?
Casey Munck:
And what about you personally, Ben? What have been some of the defining moments that you said like, this is just not for me. Something has got to change in my life and how I’m doing things, what have you? Can any come to mind for you?
Ben Kiker:
For sure. I think probably one of the big ones for me was realizing that I had a pretty growing and serious substance abuse problem and that it was really getting in the way, in the way of my life on all levels that work at home relationships. And that definitely was a defining moment and being able to take action at that defining moment. So that’s probably the big one that comes to mind as front and center for sure. And look, we all have those, right? I mean, I call them these ‘hitting the wall’ moments and you don’t get to this point here in ‘Earth School’ without having hit the wall at some point over something, whatever that thing is.
Casey Munck:
That’s great. No, it always gets better after you’ve hit the wall, fell down and started to pick yourself back up, things start to make sense so many ways.
Ben Kiker:
And that’s where the work starts, right, is the picking back up. And I always approach it and I encourage other people to approach it as how do you learn and grow, right? Because if I can figure out a way to learn and grow from this experience, then I have an opportunity to help other people learn and go as well. Galen, you were going to jump in?
Galen Ettlin:
No, no, that’s fine. I was just going to say that is a really big one too that you mentioned and one that takes a lot of strength and vulnerability to tackle. And so I just appreciate you sharing that. I’m sure there’s a lot of people out there that can relate even if they’re not at that same step yet.
Ben Kiker:
Yeah, yeah, for sure. For sure.
Galen Ettlin:
Now, we do have some general questions that we’d like to ask our guests on the Rebel Instinct podcast. And so some of them may apply to what you’ve talked about. We can expand upon it as well. What’s the most rebellious thing you’d say or out of the box thing that you’ve tried and how did it perform?
Ben Kiker:
I did hear this question on a couple of other podcasts that y’all recorded that I went and listened to before. Today I’m actually going to go back to something fairly rebellious that I did as a young marketer. So my very first marketing gig, and I didn’t plan, by the way, for going into marketing. It just sort of happened and here I am, but I thought I want to figure out a way to make a career out it. And so I remember talking to my then marketing director saying, Hey, I’d really like to know what do I need to do so that I can get to the role that you have right now? And the answer I got was, it’s going to be really tough. It’s going to be really tough. All of our marketing directors here have an MBA from Stanford or Harvard, and you don’t have an MBA from one of those two schools. And in that moment I thought, screw the marketing director role. I’m going to figure out a way how to become A CMO, and that set me on my path. So I consider that to be fairly rebellious and not taking the answer of, you just need to stay in your swim lane and stay in your box,
Galen Ettlin:
Or you have to go to this school, otherwise you won’t be successful.
Ben Kiker:
Or you have to leave and go to school and then come back and then try again, right? Exit the game, go try to do that and then come back and no, I’m not going to take that path.
Casey Munck:
Yeah, I had a similar background as well coming up with the Harvard kids and the Stanford kids, and I went to the University of Arkansas at Little Rock, but you can get there if you have hustle and heart for sure.
Ben Kiker:
My brother-in-law would love you because he is a big Razorback fan.
Casey Munck:
So nice.
Ben Kiker:
There you go.
Casey Munck:
Excellent. Yeah, we got to call the hogs a couple times a year. So what advice would you give to marketers on being more rebellious in their jobs, Ben?
Ben Kiker:
Whatever amount of time that you’re spending with customers and prospective customers today, take that and multiply that by 10. I’m always surprised at how little, say it a different way, how easy it is for marketers, for all the reasons that you all know, and many of the folks that are listening to this podcast know to get pulled away from the revenue line, to get pulled away from the frontline and just to rebel against all that pulls you away and get close to customers, get close to the market. That’s an incredibly rebellious thing to do. The other thing that I also recommend, and I really wish I would’ve done this early on in my career is find the one hour for yourself every day. That is that magic golden hour for you. When it just flows all of the ideas and the creativity and the magic and all of your strengths come to life in a big way, block that time out in your schedule. And do not let anyone take that time. Do not let anyone take that time. Keep that time and decline more meetings. Five people are all in the same meeting from marketing. At least two or three of them can exit.
Casey Munck:
I completely agree. And yes, so many of us today let other people control our schedules. And so I’m a big proponent of blocking out that time, several chunks throughout the day to do your work to think.
Ben Kiker:
And lemme just add back real quick on that kissing. I love you do that. And that is a practice. I want to be clear. That is absolutely a practice that takes a while to do it, but this is what I remind clients, listen, if you block it out five times a week every day of the week, and you only do it three times a week, that’s still three more times than you were doing it before you blocked it out. So I just want to recognize that the practice of blocking that out, how important it is because it sets the intention for you to actually get it done.
Casey Munck:
How are you rebel in your non-work life?
Ben Kiker:
I’ve always been pretty open and just authentically me. I mean, just talking about, for example, my journey with addiction and then recovery. I came out super early in my career back during the era of don’t ask, don’t tell when a lot of people didn’t do that. And I was very open about my life and who I loved and what I did. And then I also talk a lot about my insane thought generator, that crazy voice in my head that comes up with all kinds of unhelpful stories, none of which are true by the way, and how it really works to keep me out of fluent off my game. So I think just trying to come from a place of just being super open and authentic.
Casey Munck:
Thank you for doing that honestly, because it’s been really awesome to see the trend of the full battle shield come down from leaders and how inspiring that can be to staff to be like, you can have a bad mental health day. You can be open about being in recovery or who you love or what have you. And that’s what makes us all stronger together. I think we tell those stories to one another.
Ben Kiker:
I completely agree. And Brene Brown has this awesome quote about vulnerability. She’s like, it’s the first thing that I want to see in you, and it’s the last thing that I want you to see in me. So when we model that for each other, then it melts that. It makes that a little bit easier.
Galen Ettlin:
And I think living authentically too is really a difficult thing to achieve in your own authentic self because a lot of society discourages that. When we ask, how are you, the answer we want to hear is good. And I think that’s kind of how we’re programmed. It’s not so much like, I’m having a really tough time because of this, or let me tell you about what I’m going through. I think a lot of people will kind of be taken aback by that, but we really do have to retrain ourselves to have the other mindset of let’s step in and be supportive, or let’s give this person that space
Ben Kiker:
Again. I would really challenge you to when somebody goes, how are you doing? Don’t say fine or good. I mean, just really say, you know what? I’m, the dial is set to negative right now. I’m working to turn it to positive, but it’s set to negative. Just really let people know kind of where you are and what’s going on. Because I find when I do that, it generally elicits a more authentic, real response from the other person on what’s going on in their world today.
I love this conversation. God, this is so good!
Galen Ettlin:
That’s the goal!
Ben Kiker:
There you go. Hold on, wait a minute. [DING] There we go!
Galen Ettlin:
We get a dinging from you. [laughs]
Ben Kiker:
My desk bell for good, positive moments.
Casey Munck:
I need one of those. I’m steal that.
Galen Ettlin:
I’m honored that we get to be a part of that moment.
Casey Munck:
Yes same.
Galen Ettlin:
Well, apart from us, what rebel in our culture do you think needs to be celebrated and why?
Ben Kiker:
This is, I think a little people crazy when they listen to this. I am going to acknowledge a Franciscan priest by the name of Richard Rohr, who founded the Center for Action and Contemplation and Albuquerque, New Mexico. And I went to a conference in Albuquerque and heard him speak and he said, and I love this line among many lines. I can’t think of a single Christian religion that has a human view, that has a healthy view on human sexuality. It’s either fear-based, shame-based, or both. And this is from a 70 something person inside of an institution saying, we just don’t do this well, we just don’t do this well. So I’m a huge fan of him and his work around developing one’s spirituality, internal center self, and really enjoy listening to what he does and love to highlight him when I can.
Casey Munck:
He sounds really interesting. I’ll have to look him up after that. He sounds like a true rebel in his space for sure.
Ben Kiker:
He is absolutely rebel long before all of us were around and little rebels in training.
Casey Munck:
Okay, so now Ben, it’s time for our ‘honey, I don’t think so’ segment, talking about what’s annoying you in marketing or MarTech lately, that needs to stop right now. You’ve got 60 seconds to plead your case. Galen will be counting you down. We hold this very firm to the time limits. Are you ready, Ben, for your ‘honey, I don’t think so.’
Ben Kiker:
I am ready.
Casey Munck:
Okay, take it away.
Ben Kiker:
Alright, let me start with three words, Elon Musk, Twitter.
Now that we’ve moved beyond that, emails that begin with, ‘Hey, I’m just putting this back to the top of your email in case you may have overlooked it or seen it before.’ I’m done with those emails. Just resend the email to me. I saw it the first time. I ignored it the first time. I’m going to ignore it the second time. I’m done.
Casey Munck:
Honey, I don’t think so with the passive aggressive bubble ups.
Ben Kiker:
I love that passive aggressive. Can we make that a little acronym? PABOs.
Casey Munck:
PABO. Yes, we can. It starts now.
Ben Kiker:
By the way, if you lead the Twitter Elon Musk thing in, I mean, we can end up getting really, there could be a lot of Twitter bots that come after your podcast, so you’ve got that going for
Galen Ettlin:
You. Oh, that’s my dream. I live for this.
Ben Kiker:
That’s what I’m wanting. I’m wanting the people to come after us.
Casey Munck:
I dare you. I dare you. Twitter bots.
Ben Kiker:
If you’re a marketer, it’s got to make you crazy right now because he just is sucking up all of the oxygen in the room, right? So if you’re a marketer, you’re coming up with incredible creative campaigns and ideas and stories and messages, and then Elon goes, I want to do a poll today. And then there goes the world. Okay. I think I’m way beyond 60 seconds with that. But you got me started. You got me started. You asked the question,
Galen Ettlin:
You finished the main thought in the 30 seconds, actually, so I just stopped counting at that point. This is all extra.
Casey Munck:
It is. Well, thank you so much, Ben. You’re such an inspiring person to me, especially with how authentic that you are. I think that’s really, really beautiful. So I just, thanks again for being on the podcast. Thank you. Ben.
Ben Kiker:
Yeah, thank you both.
Casey Munck:
Yeah, if you need some coaching, reach out to Ben. His information will be in the description on this. So yeah, keep on rocking Ben. Thanks so much.
Ben Kiker:
Have a great, great kick ass 2023.
Casey Munck:
Yeah, you too.
Galen Ettlin:
You too. Bye. Thanks everyone for listening to the Rebel Instinct Podcast. Be sure to follow act on software for updates in upcoming episodes, and remember to always act on your rebel instinct. Until next time.
Check out the next episode of the Rebel Instinct Podcast with Marc Liu, chief revenue officer of e-bike company Civilized Cycle.