On every episode of the Rebel Instinct, our team sits down with rebels from across the marketing landscape to share stories about bold moves they’ve taken as marketers. Subscribe for more.
Galen Ettlin:
You are listening to the Rebel Instinct Podcast by Act-On Software for all the marketing innovators living outside the box.
Thanks for getting rebellious with us everybody. I’m Galen Ettlin with Act-On Software, here again with my VP of marketing, Casey Munck, and of course our guest today, Nancy Poznoff, CEO and co-founder of the Kingston Marketing Group and former VP of Marketing at both Zillow and Starbucks for a while. Casey – you know she’s a boss.
Casey Munck:
Oh yeah, boss lady, for sure. Nancy, thank you so much for being here. We’ve worked with your agency, Kingston Marketing Group with Act-On and have loved absolutely everything that they’ve done for us, and I’ve always been curious about you. So excited to have a conversation and find out more about you as a boss lady.
Nancy Poznoff:
It’s so nice to meet both of you and thanks for the time today.
Galen Ettlin:
Of course. Diving into what you’re doing right now, let’s talk about that. You’ve got quite the agency, a lot of different services to help elevate companies in areas of branding, social media, PR content, and so many other things in addition to that. What made you decide to start a marketing agency? Something that’s pretty different than your big roles at places like Zillow, Starbucks, and even T-Mobile?
Nancy Poznoff:
Yeah, it was a big right turn for sure, after more years than I like to say out loud, but 20 years in corporate environments. I was at Starbucks for the bulk of my career, went to Zillow. Zillow after about two years was going through major strategic shift, which typically is something that’s really super energizing to me. And I would have been really motivated and kind of ready to roll, and I wasn’t at all. I was just like, eh, I don’t want to do this. And so that was really important information for me. And I kind of took a step back and examined what is it that’s going on? And I realized it was just time for me to just chart a different course. I think I was pretty, being a VP of marketing in any organization, as you well know, it’s a grind. It can be really hard and intense.
And I think I was just ready to get on a different track. And so I had coffee with my coworker, Katie. We had gotten pretty close at Zillow. We were both thinking about leaving and we went and met in Kingston, Washington, which is the midpoint between our houses. And I said, I’m thinking about consulting. And she said, oh, so am I. And we were like, well, hey, we love working together at Zillow. Why don’t we give this a shot? And a couple weeks later, we had a business license. We had our first client signed up and we were off to the races. So really, I think we were deliberate about the kind of agency we wanted to build, the kind of services we wanted to offer. But at the end of the day, it was really about that integrated approach between the disciplines of marketing and communications that got us most excited to work together. So here we are three years later. We’ve served probably 75 clients at this point. We’ve got a lot of really phenomenal relationships and ongoing clients, repeat clients, and it’s just been such a great move for both of us.
Casey Munck:
That takes a lot of courage. Where did that come from? And who was your first client, if you don’t mind sharing?
Nancy Poznoff:
Yeah, it’s funny. I get a lot of people, especially over the last couple years, been a little disruptive out there in the world and a lot of people are looking at making moves. And I think for me it never felt unattainable. It felt like the right time. And so that made it less scary. I think the other thing is I had been, before I left Starbucks, I started to think I just need a break. I just want to take a year or something. So I had been squiring away a lot of money with the goal of “I need to be able to live for a while without an income.” And so that having that if even early in career, I strongly recommend to people just squirrel away as much as you can because it just gives you the freedom to make choices and have that you cash sitting around.
So if you need to make a hard pivot, you don’t have that as something that’s holding you back. And that can be a really, really hard thing to accomplish, especially early in career. But whenever you have that extra to sock away, I think that’s really important. And then having a business partner was also really helpful because it can feel really overwhelming. I’ve never run an agency, I’ve always been in-house. Katie had always been in-house. And so it was just nice to have that thought partner and know that we have completely complimentary skills and it just felt really safe to have someone who I knew rounded out my blind spots and along the journey.
Casey Munck:
Great advice. So you don’t have to make those desperate moves.
Nancy Poznoff:
Exactly.
Casey Munck:
Strategy is a big part of what you do, what you coach companies with. What are some of the common red flags that you work to fix?
Nancy Poznoff:
Yes. The big one is “we have a brand,” and what companies mean when they say that is “we have a logo” and maybe some brand guidelines. And so we focus a lot on helping companies really unearth the core DNA of their brand. At KMG, we define brand as the contract you make with your customer. So how are you engaging your customer? Every single touchpoint, whether that’s in the digital space, in the physical space between human connection with your product experience, whatever it might be, that is collectively the sum of all those parts is your brand. So we love to work with companies who are early in that journey or are looking to reposition their brand to really shore up their brand and kind of what I like to call fill the vessel. They may have a logo, they may have a beautiful voice and tone and color palette, but there’s empty.
They don’t know who they are, they don’t know what they stand for.And it’s easy to get to that place, especially when you are in startup mode and you just want to get something out in the world. And then suddenly a couple years later you’re like, who are we? What do we mean? And then I’d say the second one is especially on B2B, I think a lot of companies don’t recognize that it’s still a human interaction. They think it’s a business to business, but it’s not robots talking to robots yet. It’s people talking to people. And so we like to remind, especially our B2B clients and help them think about the fact that that is a human transaction. You still have a thinking, feeling, person making a decision about buying your product or your service. So how do you really unearth where their head is and where their heart is and meet them where they are?
So it’s very, people always ask, are you B2B? Are you consumer? And I don’t really see a distinction in terms of how you develop a brand. There may be different tactical elements, but at the end of the day, there are people selling something to people.
And the third I would say that we hear a lot lately, especially when marketing budgets get tight, is, well, I just want PR – go get me the front page of the New York Times and then my brand will just take off. And there’s no such thing as just PR, right? It is really how do you take a really integrated approach to build your brand? And it’s a long game and that can be really hard, but you have to make continuous deposits in the bank of people’s consumers minds in order for that to pay dividends.
Casey Munck:
Great answer. Yeah, I really resonate with what you’re talking about on the why, the mission, the purpose of the brand. And you see that time and time again at companies on engagement surveys. If your staff doesn’t understand what the common mission is, those are your representatives. So everyone has to be on board and understand what that’s about and sign up people who believe in that as well.
Nancy Poznoff:
Absolutely. I mean, it should be part of your hiring practice. What kinds of values are you looking for, things like that, all matter at every single touchpoint.
Casey Munck:
I love that you’re helping companies with that. Well, we’ve had some amazing women on the podcast who’ve had to go through some battles to get through success, and I was wondering if there was a defining moment in your journey that you had to go through.
Nancy Poznoff:
Yeah, I think the biggest one would be what I call the Great Red Cup drama of 2015, 2016. So I worked for Starbucks and I was the director of basically the holiday window. And we had a controversy where we launched a red cup. And the red cup is kind of the kickoff to the holiday season for a lot of consumers. And it was just an ombre red tone. So people saw it as kind of a blank red cup. And there was person who basically called for a boycott of Starbucks because he was claiming that was anti Christmas and we “had taken all the Christmas symbols off the cup,” which by the way, we had never had symbols of Christmas on the Red Cup. But he basically had this brilliant idea to boycott Starbucks by going to Starbucks, buying a drink, and having people say their name was Merry Christmas, so that the barista would have to call out Merry Christmas.
So at first we were like, we’re not going to worry about this guy who’s a lunatic. But then it got picked up by the media, it got picked up by Donald Trump. He was calling for people to boycott Starbucks. And it turned into this huge drama. The head of our creative studio was getting death threats. It was bad. And I was at that point a director. I was like, what are we going to do to help turn this situation around? There were a couple moments in time that were really defining and really shaped how I think about brand.
The first was the way our consumers came to our defense. So in social media, there’s a lot of negative chatter, but so many people came to our defense. They were explaining on our behalf, which was really phenomenal. And I was thinking about that, wow, we’ve got this groundswell of people who really care about our brand, who really feel a sense of ownership. We’ve got a blank canvas here in this red cup. Why don’t we pull those two things together? And so about mid December, I went to my leadership and I said, I think we need to fill this cup with some images for next year. So let’s think about how we can do that. And we ended up doing a contest in social media and Instagram and did a call for content. We asked our customers to draw on the Red cup and submit their drawings to us. And so we got over 1200 submissions in five days from all over the globe. We went through with our creative studio and we selected the top 12 I think designs, and those became the Red cups for the following year.
And then we all went to New York, we flew all the artists and we had a big event and kind of unveiled the red cup together. And it was a really powerful moment to bring to life the way that everyone celebrates differently in this cup became a canvas for people to express how they celebrate the holidays. And it was just this moment, a sense of real community and kind of global community during the 2016 election. So it was a really nice moment as a marketer, because you could just feel the power of the brand and the impact that people’s daily coffee ritual has and the love that they had for the Starbucks brand and was palpable. And so it was just a really, really humbling moment, but also a really defining moment for my career.
Casey Munck:
That’s incredible. The fans came through for y’all. And you know what? It’s so amazing as well, the haters who are trying to not make this holiday inclusive. Y’all were able to come back with a story where everyone can celebrate the holidays or the tradition that makes sense and that they love. So I love that. Really cool.
Nancy Poznoff:
And not any brand could pull that off. I don’t see McDonald’s being able to pull that off.
Casey Munck:
No, no, no.
Nancy Poznoff:
So it was a really stressful time, but also very really magical time.
Casey Munck:
You should feel proud of that. That’s awesome.
Galen Ettlin:
Absolutely. It really speaks to what you do now too, where that was a crossover of messy PR and then you spun it into a way that really reflected your brand voice and what you were trying to do, which was be inclusive. And then also you just got people to contribute from all over the world. And that’s really, really interesting.
Nancy Poznoff:
And I think that’s a great point, Galen, being able to have that tight brand strategy really know who you are and what you stand for as an organization is paramount in those moments. Because every brand at some point is going to have some kind of a controversy. And being able to stick to your mission and your values and your brand positioning is huge. Those are the moments where it will pay for itself. And it’s sometimes hard to connect all those dots or understand, especially as you’re early in your development, what is this really going to do for me? Why am I spending so much money? And I would say, you got to sweat the brief. You got to think really, really hard and study yourself and do the hard work upfront because it will just make all those moments where you have that test of your brand so much easier in terms of decision making and how you move forward because it gives you that north star to anchor all your decisions too.
Galen Ettlin:
Especially in a pinch like that, you had to really turn around quickly.
Nancy Poznoff:
You don’t have time. Yeah. You got to know who you are and what you stand for so you can pivot quickly.
Casey Munck:
Yeah. Cause I think consumers are watching brands as well and seeing how they react when things go wrong, and you have an opportunity to really continue to gain their trust and respect in how you respond in hard times like that. So that’s great.
Nancy Poznoff:
And I think that transparency and just being, you know, talk about being authentic and rebellious as a brand. And I think that’s really important to not sugarcoat it. Just be like, we’ve got a problem and here’s how we’re going to solve it. Here’s our plan. And every brand will make a mistake. And so at some point you just have to own up to it and be clear about how you’re going to move forward.
Casey Munck:
So Nancy, your agency actually helped Act-On step into our brand archetype as a rebel or outlaw in our space. What traits do you look for in a company as you’re helping them brand themselves that you felt really qualify that company as being a rebel or an outlaw?
Nancy Poznoff:
Yes. I think probably every company would like to believe they’re the rebel or the outlaw because it feels cool. But there are a handful of brands I think that really demonstrate that archetype while so like Virgin Airlines or Harley Davidson, but brands that are really, the traits that they have are that kind of disruptive nature. They see the status quo, they don’t like it, they want to break it and they want to rebuild it. And they’re actually doing that. And I think brands that do that have a little bit more, I guess latitude to be a little more aggressive in how they communicate. So potentially have a little bit more attitude or they’re very bold in their communication and they’re kind of pushing the envelope, not just in their product offering and not just how they’re positioning, but really how they’re communicating their brand as well. So they’re the people that you’re in awe of as if your brand was a person. They’re the people that really inspire you because they found this problem, they’ve fixed it and they’re unapologetic about it.
Casey Munck:
Cool. You got to walk the walk, not just the talk. I mean the talk’s part of it too, but you got to really own it down in your blood.
Nancy Poznoff:
And I think it needs to be a part of your culture as an organization too.
Casey Munck:
So Nancy, how are your revel in your non-work life?
Nancy Poznoff:
Yeah, so similar to how I kind of just hopped off the track that I was on in my professional life, I think I took a similar approach to my personal life. So got divorced, kind of moved out of the city. I was on definitely a very certain path. I’m not married, I live with my partner. We have a blended family and we have two teenagers. So they think we’re super boring and not rebellious at all. But I think for a long time was a single mom working a VP job. That definitely had its challenges and people can be a little shy around single mom in the workplace. It is no joke. But everything that it’s forced me to just design my life, I think in a way that feels really authentic to me. And going through those journeys and being on, I’m classic Gen X, you get on the path and then you rebel really hard against it. And that’s kind of where I am. And then the other thing that always surprises people, because I look like just your average soccer mom, but I love to sing karaoke
Casey Munck:
Watch’s your go-to?
Nancy Poznoff:
I don’t have a go-to cause I will sing anything, but I definitely like, my eighties jams are definitely a sweet spot for me. All the sad songs. But I have a group of friends that we’ve been singing together for 10 years at least to the point where one of my friends has built a state-of-the-art karaoke room in his home.
Galen Ettlin:
Can I be your friends, haha!
Casey Munck:
Take me under your wing. I want to be your karaoke protégé.
Nancy Poznoff:
People always think I must be a good singer and that is not required. The people I sing with are brilliant singers and I just kind of fill it out. But yeah, it’s a ton of fun. It’s so funny because people think it’s really strange.
Galen Ettlin:
Uh-uh. No, it’s amazing!
Nancy Poznoff:
But it’s kind of, everyone needs a creative outlet. And for a long time mine was making PowerPoint slides. That doesn’t work for me. So it’s, it’s just been cathartic.
Casey Munck:
I love someone who could belt out a good karaoke with confidence. It’s the confidence for me. That’s great.
Galen Ettlin:
Yeah. I love karaoke.
Casey Munck:
Oh, what’s your go-to karaoke song, Galen?
Galen Ettlin:
“Something’s Got a Hold on Me” by Etta James. But the Christina Aguilera version, cause I love her.
Casey Munck:
Yeah, I knew Christina would be involved.
Galen Ettlin:
Always. Lady Marmalade is another one.
Nancy Poznoff:
Oh man, that’s a vocal challenge.
Galen Ettlin:
Maybe one day you’ll hear it.
Nancy Poznoff:
I know. I’ll have to invite you guys next time.
Galen Ettlin:
Yes please!
Casey Munck:
That would be incredible.
So what rebel do you feel needs to be celebrated in our culture and why?
Nancy Poznoff:
One that’s on my mind lately, and this may feel obvious, but Ryan Reynolds last week, I think it was, he came out with the Mint mobile ad. Did you see that?
Ryan Reynolds soundbite:
“…an ad that I created using chatGPT, the AI technology…”
Nancy Poznoff:
I just think he’s, first of all, he’s a great actor and adorable, but the way he markets is just so brilliant. He takes a cultural moment or cultural truth. I wouldn’t want to work for ’em because they must work so hard to turn these campaigns literally within days. But I really appreciate the way that he just squarely comes out, whatever the current dialogue is. If he had been around during the Red Cup drama… The way that he responded with Aviation Gin to the Peloton crisis a few years ago, and he had the woman from the ad that kind of went sideways drinking gin in the bar, and then this Mint Mobile ad, like going squarely at chatCPT, which there’s a lot of chatter around, is this going to replace the need for content marketing or marketers in general? And he just went straight at it. And so I really appreciate that about him. And I’m sure there’s a crew of people, rebellious people behind him, and he’s really the face of it. But there is something pretty magical I think, in the work that he’s doing. I think a great example of the rebel archetype, right? Just goes straight at a controversy with humor and intelligence and just isn’t afraid to stare it down.
Casey Munck:
Absolutely. Deadpool. Hello? Oh, ultimate rebel. Marvel Rebel. Love him too. He’s adorable.
Okay, so now it’s time for our “honey, I don’t think so” segment, where you’re going to call out something that needs to stop now in marketing or MarTech. Are you ready?
Nancy Poznoff:
I’m ready.
Casey Munck:
Galen’s going to give you 60 seconds. He’s going to be counting down on the clock. So Nancy, okay. It’s time for your honey. I don’t think so.
Nancy Poznoff:
So I don’t usually get annoyed by marketing trends because I’m a marketer and I’m like, Hey, try it. See what works. Get out there and experiment. But one thing in social media that makes me insane is the voice to speech feature in TikTok. So the TikTok voice, and there’s a lot of TikTok happening in my house of a 15 year old, a 13 year old, and a 46 year old who are all constantly scrolling through TikTok. And the sound of that voice – that robotic cadence just grates on me. And I think it’s because it sounds so unnatural and I’m all about human connection. That’s what I do for a living. That’s how I approach the world. And those kind of artificial voices just make my skin crawl and have actually are the reason I no longer use TikTok. So get
Casey Munck:
Get out here, artificial voices!
Thank you so much, Nancy. You’re a true delight. And just all the best for the new year for you and the Kingston Group.
Nancy Poznoff:
Thank you Back at you. I appreciate it. Thanks for the time today.
Galen Ettlin:
Thanks everyone for listening to the Rebel Instinct Podcast. Be sure to follow Act-On Software for updates and upcoming episodes and remember to always act on your rebel instinct. Until next time.
Check out the next episode of the Rebel Instinct Podcast with Roshni Wijayasinha, a street artist, agency CEO, and a fractional CMO helping startups break the mold with their marketing.