On every episode of the Rebel Instinct, our team sits down with rebels from across the marketing landscape to share stories about bold moves they’ve taken as marketers. Subscribe for more.
Galen Ettlin:
Thank you so much everybody for joining the Rebel Instinct podcast. I’m Galen Ettlin with Act-On Software and our guest today is Jamie Roberts, an award-winning designer, turned life coach and career guru. She is CEO of Rock That Creative Job and host of the Rock That Creative Job podcast. She works to help people get better jobs, get better pay, and take full advantage of their creative mojo. She speaks from a couple decades of experience working as creative director and many other roles at a bunch of places, including KinderCare here in Portland, Oregon, and many more. Thank you so much for being here, Jamie.
Jamie Roberts:
Thank you. It’s so exciting to be here and chat with you.
Galen Ettlin:
I think you lend a lot of expertise to things that people are going through right now, so I want to really jump into the creative side first because I know that’s really fun. I love that. It’s something that I know you really rock <laugh> as your company name says. You work to empower people in their creative truths, if you will, and get them out of that imposter syndrome rut. What inspired that shift for you to leave your corporate roles to now do this as a career coach?
Jamie Roberts:
I think it, honestly, there’s two parts to it. So it goes back to my experience in my own career where I never really found the right advice as I was going through transitions, like layoffs or just wanting to move up, wanting to know how to get promoted, wanting to know how to get to the next level. And there were a lot of struggles and I could never really find someone who understood the space I was in and how to give me that guidance and advice. It all felt very generic. So in 2020 when I saw so many people really struggling because we had just entered into the pandemic and people were either furloughed or laid off permanently, and I had a lot of creatives that I had worked with or had worked for me reaching out to me, asking me, “can you look at my resume? Can you look at my portfolio and tell me if it looks okay? I haven’t done this in a long time, I want to put myself out there. I don’t know how to do it.” It really kind of sparked something in me and it reminded me of what I really loved most about a lot of my creative leadership positions, which was that mentorship and just guidance and helping people feel comfortable selling their ideas and pitching new concepts and learning how to be a better manager or how to move up to the management level or just how to work into a new position. And so I thought maybe there’s a space for this. I sort of put it out there for the broader audience, this is something that I do, does anyone need this? And they did. My experience, plus what was happening in 2020 as the world was changing. I felt like I wanted to be of service and really help people move forward and feel less stressed and less paralyzed by what was going on. Because if you haven’t interviewed or applied for a job in a decade and you were in a job that you thought you would have maybe forever and you’re suddenly doing this, it can feel really, really stressful. So that was my catalyst.
Galen Ettlin:
Even if it’s not been a decade, I think it’s really scary. It could be six months and the landscape will have totally changed with what we’re going through right now. I think your experience, it’s also kind of a scary leap, you know, you took a risk to do something totally new. You talked about the inspiration for you with all the people who needed help, but what was that like for you? I would imagine that was one of those things where you probably had a lot of, “should I do this?” Maybe some of that imposter syndrome creeped in a little bit for you?
Jamie Roberts:
Oh yeah. So I was furloughed for several months, maybe four or five months not knowing really where things were going to land. And during that time I thought, okay, I want to be prepared in case this role is permanently canceled. And my position at the time was to kind of create the vision for the brand and it was to think a couple years down the road, where do we want to go? How do we want to get there? And if you are just worried about the day-to-day in an organization and there’s really no room for that vision because you’re trying to keep the lights on. And so I kind of understood that maybe my role, it wouldn’t make sense anymore just from a business perspective. So I really wanted to think about what else do I want to do? Do I want to do this somewhere else?
And it was absolutely scary. I’ve had a freelance business on the side so I’ve run my own business, but never full-time. And I started out right after college. I got hired the summer after I graduated and I have not stopped working since. And so it was a scary leap. People might say I have an entrepreneurial spirit, but even if you have the spirit, you still don’t know all the details on how you’re going to manage things and do the sort of day-to-day and figure this out. So yeah, I had a lot of imposter syndrome, could I do this? Can I run a business by myself at first and figure out how to connect with people, how to create those meaningful relationships, how to market myself appropriately, how to do all the financial things.
Generally, designers are not great mathematicians, so that’s why we’re in design. But what really was reinforced the positive side of this was the fact that there were so many people in need and I felt like I was providing this service that people, it would provide them with this relief of “someone gets me and someone can help me and I don’t know what to do.” And so having that experience of being able to help people, it just felt so empowering. And so I was emotionally invested immediately. So it was like, well, there’s no turning back because to turn back means that you’re leaving these people behind that need you. And so I thought, I’m going to figure this out and even though we’re in a pandemic, I’m still going to start a business and this is how it’s going to go.
And now I still work through the imposter syndrome. There’s always a new day and a new thing to learn and a new tool and a new approach and the new algorithm. So you work within what you have, but it’s been amazing.
Galen Ettlin:
You mentioned how a lot of those stressors can really stifle creativity, but it sounds like you’ve found your spark through that inspiration of others. “I’ve got a purpose, a mission, so I can get through some of these stressors.” For people who are maybe already in a role where they’re experiencing some of those stressors – I just kind of glancing at your resume, something that I related to you on was that I saw you didn’t necessarily spend forever at one company. You made moves, it looked like pretty deliberately as you wanted to find that creative outlet. Again, I’m assuming, but maybe you can correct me if I’m wrong. For me, I was one of those people that if something did not spark joy or if the place was toxic or if the managers were toxic, I found outlets to leave pretty soon. Within a year or two. I was not going to spend energy and time at a place that wasn’t going to value that creative spark. I’m sure you’ve had a lot of different experiences, but how have you really channeled your journey into now helping people navigate that process and find their own creative light again elsewhere?
Jamie Roberts:
Yeah, I mean, that’s a great question. And honestly, a lot of the advice I give is based off the mistakes I made. One of the things I talk a lot with my clients about is alignments and you can feel totally aligned with the mission and vision of an organization and your role and the team you’re on and all of that. And that changes. And so you have to be ready for that. You have to be aware of when you are misaligned because that is when the job starts to eat you. It dulls your creative spark. And as a creative person, you are expected to come up with new and innovative ideas. And if you are feeling those anxious feelings every day, that’s going to be really hard to do. So the efficacy of your work is not going to be great if you are in a position where you just don’t feel aligned to what’s happening.
And just recognizing that, and I think that was one of the things I recognized in my career at certain points, it was like, okay, you know what? I used to love this, but do I still love this? Do I still like where the organization’s going or how the team structure is or what we’re working on or the client mix, it’s going to change. And a lot of people, they’re caught off guard by this and the old sort of way that the past generations have looked at getting a job, and you’re there for 30 years and then you retire and you get the gold watch. No one does that anymore. And so we have to be prepared, but we also have to recognize that there’s an intuition there and to not be afraid to say, this doesn’t work for me anymore, and there’s probably a place that does, and that’s okay, you can opt out. It’s really hard for us to do that, but it really is that alignment because you’re not going to have that joy without it.
Galen Ettlin:
In seeking that alignment, are there strategies that you coach people through? Because I would imagine for some people they might just feel kind of lost. Maybe they’ve worked so hard to get to a certain point and then realize they’ve hit that wall. What direction do you go? Is it something like you storyboard it? Do you go take a walk and talk to your mom on the phone? I don’t know what it is. What is kind of the baseline strategy that maybe you approached this with when you were facing this same challenge?
Jamie Roberts:
So there’s a lot of questions that you need to ask yourself, and one of which is, “do I actually like this?” You need to be honest and think about is this company doing the things that I enjoy? Are they going forward in a direction that I want to go? And I think a lot of what people are afraid to do is to look at other job postings and they’re afraid to look beyond where they are because it’s like it’s the “devil you know. You’re somewhere and it’s comfortable and you’re okay. I could put up with it. It’s fine. I mean, I’m stressed out all the time and I have stomach aches when I go to work, but it’s probably better than anywhere else.” And that’s not true. And so I always encourage people to just start looking. It doesn’t even need to be in your town, in your city, it can be anywhere, but just start looking at different jobs to kind of spark like, “oh, I would love to do that, or that sounds interesting.”
And it will remind you of why you do what you do and the creativity that you enjoy. Just seeing that those things exist out there in the world and you realize, “oh, I don’t have to be stuck here doing this work that I find creatively mind numbing” or just uninteresting or it’s just below your skillset at a certain point. It doesn’t even need to be a new job posting. Sometimes, they’re not accepting new applications, but the idea is that you’re seeing what you’re looking for somewhere else and you can move yourself out of where you are because you recognize that there’s opportunity
Galen Ettlin:
Really seeking out the inspiration if you’re not feeling it at the moment.
Jamie Roberts:
Yes, you have to because if you get stuck in that, well, you’re not going to climb out. You just keep going further down. And so you need to see the light of day <laugh> at certain points. It’s similar to how business is, assessing where they are in the market and then they pivot. We need to do that for ourselves. And I don’t think a lot of people consider their own career as a business, but it’s like if it doesn’t work for you, your customer, your customers are not responding to what you have to offer. It’s time to find different customers. It’s how it works. And that’s okay to think about your career that way because I think you get more out of it, especially as a creative.
Galen Ettlin:
Yeah. Well, I mean you mentioned, too, how a lot of our culture is not really teaching us to think that way. The whole idea of you’re going to get the gold watch after 30 years really doesn’t play into that. “Oh, I need to make a change” kind of mentality.
Jamie Roberts:
Yes, absolutely. And another, just to make a further point there, part of the hustle culture, it teaches us that we can deal with things we don’t like and we’re supposed to. And if you “don’t like your job, then you’re doing it right.” It’s like, no, that’s actually not right. It teaches you that you’re not supposed to look for something better. That’s what you’re supposed to have. And a lot of people don’t agree with that. They want to move on, but they feel like, “oh, am I quitting? Am I a quitter? Am I too weak to deal with this?” That’s not really it. We’re not supposed to work like that. We’re supposed to work in a way that makes us feel excited to contribute what we have.
Galen Ettlin:
So on your podcast Rock That Creative Job, you have an episode called “Career lies we tell ourselves.” What are some of the big lies that you catch people in?
Jamie Roberts:
Oh my gosh, well, I’ve caught myself in a lot of these.
One of the main things people say when I begin to work with them is: any place is likely better than where I’m at, even if they are absolutely miserable in a job, they have a boss that they don’t necessarily agree with or work well with. They have a team that’s dysfunctional, they work for a corporation that they don’t really believe in the mission. They have this idea that there’s nowhere better.
Another thing that people usually tell themselves is, no one else can do this. “I’m the only one who knows this brand. I’m the only one who knows the clients. I’m the only one who knows the workflow processes and the tools, and no one could do this. And so I have to be here to keep the wheel cranking.” And that’s just an excuse because it’s scary to put yourself out there.
I get a lot of people who are like, but “what’s going to happen to X, Y, Z?” It’s like, well, they’re going to replace you just like you’re going to replace someone else who probably left a job when you move on. So just recognizing that it’s okay, you can be amazing at what you do, but you’re not the only one that can do it, and you could probably do it better somewhere that maybe appreciates you more.
There’s also the social component where people are like, “but I have friends here and I don’t want to leave my friends.” And that is very hard because as humans, we want to belong and we want to fit in, and we want to feel like we have our group and they get us and we get them. And you don’t want to leave your friends because if it’s a toxic situation, sometimes you feel guilty that you’re the one that got out and they’re still there dealing with that difficult boss or difficult clients. But that’s how it works. I mean, you have to move on. You can’t just stay. The truth is you’ll make friends at the next job. You’ll have more friends the more jobs you have, and that’s also been my experience. And so there is a benefit to just looking at it from another perspective. You’ll still have those friends, you’ll just have more of them.
Galen Ettlin:
The one that you mentioned about feeling like you’re abandoning or that, “oh yeah, you’re the only one that can do this – what’s going to happen if you leave?” – and you’re a hundred percent right, they’re just going to move on.
Jamie Roberts:
<laugh> Exactly. And it’s not to say everyone’s replaceable. Everyone has a unique perspective, but your perspective might be better suited for a different place just like someone else’s might be better suited for the role you’re currently in. So it is a game of musical chairs, and it’s okay. I mean, how you get great experience and you learn new things and you get to see the range of your talents and how to actually contribute to different organizations.
Galen Ettlin:
I mean, you definitely summed up the biggest lies I told myself the last decade of me working in journalism, so I understand completely what you’re talking about.
Once you get over those lies though, then you find yourself, like you said, in a better place where you’re more appreciated or your skills are being applied better – or both.
Jamie Roberts:
Exactly. I mean, it’s the best case scenario. You want to be appreciated and you want to be able to do the work that you love to do, and I help people figure out where does that exist and let’s go after that.
Galen Ettlin:
To that point, talking about where these jobs exist, you’ve touched on in your podcast about how tricky it is for creatives to find stable jobs where their work is respected, especially right now, I think is pretty tricky when it comes to the economy and all of that. Do you feel that there is a compromise that people have to make between say, just getting a job and that creative identity?
Jamie Roberts:
I think it’s difficult for creatives because of a lot of us, myself included, ended up in this commercial field because we loved art, we loved making art, we loved making things, we loved creating. And that’s how I found myself in graphic design, and I realized that really resonated because it was a series of problem-solving exercises and where art is a little more free, free-flow thinking, there’s not as many constraints.
So I try to help people remember that that’s the commercial pursuit is about constraints. And so you’re solving problems, and if that doesn’t fulfill your need to just have that free flow creative outlet, then you should do other things outside of work that build that up. And most creatives have a secondary pursuit. There’s a lot of people who are designers and also illustrators, or they do photography on the side, or they do video, or they build things, or they do sculpture or ceramics or make jewelry, whatever it is, you’re always an outlet.
But being able to have two different types where you have your sort of commercial [role], where you’re working within the constraints of your job, what you’re selling, what you’re doing, what the client needs are, requests and the feedback you have to take. And you might not agree with all of those things you’re still doing, you’re still solving a problem, you’re still creatively approaching the work, but having something outside that, it allows you to balance that out so you don’t feel like, “wow, I’m putting everything into this and I’m not getting enough out,” because you never will because it is commercial and there’s always going to be constraints, and there’s always going to be a problem to solve. And sometimes it’s going to be frustrating, but at the end of the day, knowing that you’re using your creative brain to solve business problems like that, that is how you should feel fulfilled.
And if you need to go home and do some pottery to feel like, “okay, I can open myself up and I don’t have to deal with feedback and client revisions and a workflow process,” great. Do that. So it is a balance, and I think it’s getting people away from feeling design is art or whatever creative pursuit they’re in is the art. Because as you know, you went to school for journalism – that’s not writing a novel. It’s very different. The goal is different. You might love to write, and so you want to do that on the side because that’s more of a creative flow for you. I think it’s hard when creatives can’t get into a flow in their job, but they want that, but it’s not necessarily accessible. So you have to find ways to do that outside and it will energize you for your day job. Yeah, because you won’t feel like you’re trying to squeeze everything out of that.
Galen Ettlin:
When we’re talking about maybe the opposite of constraints – maybe people put some of the constraints on themselves. You were talking about earlier, the lies we tell ourselves, the ways that people hold back or don’t want to take that plunge the leap like you did. What advice do you give to clients whom you feel need a little bit more rebellious or maybe risk taking, either in their jobs or their personal branding?
Jamie Roberts:
Yeah, I think one of the things that I really try and help people understand is who they are and what their authentic story is. Because a lot of people try to put something out there that they think someone’s going to like, right? It’s like, “oh, I have to do it a certain way because this is how it’s done,” or “I want to do it the way that someone will respond to it.” But a lot of times what happens is that starts to look very generic because you’re looking at other people’s and you’re copying their approaches. And so the goal is to put yourself out there and to showcase your uniqueness. And that may come off as being rebellious, having a different perspective, making, doing things totally differently than someone else has seen. But that’s what makes you memorable, and that’s what makes you a great creative.
It’s like, “wow, this person approached this project in a way that’s totally different than I would’ve.” Unless that’s an authentic story of who you are and what your motivations are, it’s going to be hard to do that because you’re trying to fit it into a mold. I get a lot of people who switch from other careers to go into creative because they just have that need. But it’s all about that authenticity because it allows you to tell a story in a way that no one else can because it’s yours, and there’s transparency and there’s vulnerability, and people tune up to that. They really like to see that because there’s so much generic content out in the world where people are just playing off each other and hoping that mine is slightly better, and it shouldn’t be that way. It’s like everyone has a voice and they should share that.
Galen Ettlin:
Breaking out of the mold that we put ourselves in simply by observing everything else around us.
Jamie Roberts:
Yes. I mean, comparison is what is it, the thief of joy, right? It absolutely is. You’re just going to look at someone else and think, “ah, I could never get there. Oh, maybe I could do it a little better, or maybe I do it the same way because it looked like it worked for them.” But if it’s their unique story, it’s just, you’re going to be copying. You’re not going to be authentically sharing.
Galen Ettlin:
For you personally, how are you a rebel in your non-work life?
Jamie Roberts:
I am the person who will wear the fringe jacket to karaoke, sing Elvis songs. I will wear the six inch platform shoes on stage at a speaking event, the brightest colors, the sparkliest, the shiniest, all of that. And I don’t know that I never thought of it as rebellious. I think it’s just more I’m comfortable with that level of self-expression and it feels unique and authentic to me. But I know other people see it as like, “oh my goodness, have a full sequin suit, what’s happening?”
Galen Ettlin:
Yes! Break out the sequin suit! Yes!
Jamie Roberts:
I love that because I feel like it just goes a level beyond the normal expectation of what someone might do or wear or how they would show up. I mean, I am a Halloween fan, I go down the rabbit hole of every possible detail for Halloween. Costumes, events, same thing. I love to do a theme event, and it’s really just kind of fun to show up in that way. And I feel like people enjoy that. They enjoy the sort of surprise of, “oh my gosh, I never thought you would go there. I never thought you would wear that. And that looks crazy. And I could never wear that.”
I get a lot of people saying, I could never pull that off. And truthfully, everyone can pull it off. It’s just what feels comfortable to you. But I do feel like that’s one of the things that people recognize about me. They’re like, there she is.
I ran the Shamrock Run in Portland, and everyone wears green. Everyone. There’s 30,000 people running this race. Everyone wears green. And there’s a race photo that I saw online. It was the crowd, and I was wearing a hot pink running jacket, and I was like a flamingo –
Galen Ettlin:
In the sea of green.
Jamie Roberts:
And I was like, wow. And it never occurred to me that I was doing something different. I thought, well, I don’t have any green. I like this color. I usually wear a very vibrant jacket so people can see me when I’m running in the evening or whatever. But it was like, oh, kind of <laugh> solidified the fact that, yeah, I don’t really do what other people do. I see what’s happening now. But I never saw that as a kid. My mom always said that You’re so unique with your clothes. Okay, <laugh>.
Because you’re just doing what feels good to you, and everybody has the thing that they feel like is their sort of brand thing. And I think the personal brand thing is a little overhyped, but honestly, it just is that authentic? What makes you and what makes you memorable? And that’s kind of the rebellious part.
Galen Ettlin:
Living as yourself fearlessly.
Jamie Roberts:
Yes, right, totally. And I definitely always have, I was a very shy child, very shy. And I had absolute anxiety. I wouldn’t even answer the phone. I wouldn’t look at people, I wouldn’t look at adults. When they would talk to me, I’d put my head down. I was really terrified. You’d never know that now because I never stopped talking. But it was very, my parents were like this. They were both very extroverted and they couldn’t understand why I couldn’t get there. And that really didn’t change until high school, until I started having to figure out what the rest of my life’s going to look like. Where am I going to go to college? What classes am I going to take? You know, get to make your own decisions. And it started to get more comfortable with being who I was, and that just kind of took off. And then after college, just the working world I think solidified that even more <laugh>.
Galen Ettlin:
This next question is one of my favorites because it gets so many different types of answers from very serious to very funny. What rebel do you think needs to be celebrated and why? Any answer can apply. It doesn’t have to be a real person. We’ve had fictional characters used as an example. We’ve had real leaders used as an example, all sorts of things, no limits here.
Jamie Roberts:
There are a few people whom I really look up to in the business space and kind of the entrepreneurial space. And as I was doing research on how do you build a company with not a huge business plan or a bunch of investors and a team, it’s just me trying to develop this. I actually started reading about Sara Blakely, the founder of Spanx. She’s worth a lot now, and she started this company. She used to sell fax machines door to door when she had the idea for her company, for the product of Spanx. And I just found that really inspiring because a lot of times you look at leaders and you think, oh, they probably had someone help them or they’re super successful and they might have had an easy road, or they knew someone or they took over some family business or there was some leg up somewhere, and she literally had a couple thousand dollars in her savings account and a job that she hated.
And what I think made her more rebellious is she went into it knowing that what she wanted to do, what she wanted to accomplish, which was to make women feel confident about their bodies and her advice was pay attention to what others don’t. And the way she sold that product was really authentic and wasn’t the way other business leaders were advising her to do it. They wanted her to take these straightforward approaches and what’s your business plan? And she was like, I’m just going to listen to the universe and listen to myself and I’m going to do this how I want. And she went individually, person to person, and explained what she was trying to do. And I really found that inspiring because she could have listened to these business advisors, these people who were running Fortune 500 companies, but she thought, “I don’t want to do that way. That’s not interesting to me. I want to market it how I want to market it, and I want it to feel authentic to who I am and what I’m trying to accomplish here.” And so I always felt like that was amazing. She has this story where she’s first selling these products and she made her own patent. She did everything herself because she didn’t have any money, and she would go and fly around the country and talk to all these buyers at these high end stores like Saks Fifth Avenue. And there’s one story where she literally – the woman had no time for her, wasn’t interested – and she made the woman go into the bathroom with her so she could try on the product and show her the difference of what it does for your look in certain clothing, and to drag a buyer into the bathroom at one of these stores… <laughs>
It’s like she knew that she had something, and I just love that she kind of followed that intuitive path and just followed her heart. I kind of took a little bit of that into the way I do business as well, because I feel like I don’t want to just sell something that feels like some sort of commodity or some flash in the pan. I want people to feel comfortable and they feel like they can be vulnerable with me and that I’m helping them, and they recognize that. She didn’t take a conventional path, and I thought that was pretty awesome because she just sold the majority of her company and she built such an empire, but she didn’t do it the textbook way.
Galen Ettlin:
I think that’s a great answer. And the fact that it’s a brand too, that regardless of gender and demographic, I feel like everybody knows what that product is. She did the thing!
Jamie Roberts:
Exactly Yeah, she accomplished her goal and she probably didn’t even realize how big it was going to get, but she just knew I have a thing that people want. It’s going to help them and great. I mean, if you feel like it, that’s the best way to market it. You have to have passion around it. And she did.
Galen Ettlin:
It is time for our “Honey! I don’t think so!” segment talking about what’s annoying you lately or something that needs to stop in the marketing space. I’m going to give you about 60 seconds to make your case, so whenever you’re ready, let me know.
Jamie Roberts:
The overt targeting over-marketing with the personalized approach with automation, and that is specifically location data, scraping content from emails that you write in your personal account and then sending you ads relating to them, having pop-ups that say, “oh, I saw you were right by my store and did you want to come in?” That feels so invasive. We need to understand the balance between targeting and trust because targeting is finding someone who needs what you are offering, but not to the point where you feel like a stalker. And I think that people get a little overzealous because they have all these tools that can do these hyper-targeted things, but you are eroding the trust before you even had a chance to build it. I feel like we need to just reassess how we use those tools and to be more strategic around it because creating that fear or that anxiety with someone of how do they know I’m right here? How did they know what I said to my mom in that email? That is not a great way to sell any product or service.
Galen Ettlin:
Especially in the AI world, too. People are just like, Uh-uh, keep that away [from my personal info].
Jamie Roberts:
It’s like, no, thank you. How did you know? People need to come to you when they’re ready, and if you’re constantly just barraging them with information that feels like they know a little too much about you, you’re going to ignore that brand because you’re going to feel like they’re invasive and they’re not respecting your space. So yeah, the targeting versus trust is like, it’s a huge thing. And that’s, I think about that with my business, too. I want people to know, but I don’t want to scare the hell out of ’em.
Galen Ettlin:
Well, I gave you more than 60 seconds, but we break rules here on the Rebel Instinct podcast. So it doesn’t matter. It was a good answer. I think it’s one that a lot of people can relate to anyway.
So Jamie, please tell our listeners where they can find you.
Jamie Roberts:
I have a lot of free resources on my website, rockthatcreativejob.com. I have articles, I have freebies you can download to help you with interviews. There are 20 free videos that can help you with things like resumes, portfolios, interviews. I also have my Rock That Creative Job podcast that focuses on creative career support and mindset guidance. You can email me directly at RockThatCreativeJob @ Gmail. You can LinkedIn DM me, you can follow me on Instagram, @RockThatCreativeJob. I am all over the socials. Please reach out if you need anything. I would love to hear your story and love to figure out how we can work together and I can help you. I love making friends in the creative space. It’s really fun.
Galen Ettlin:
And I’ve loved this conversation. I think it will add a lot of spark to many people’s lives, and I hope that they’ll follow up with you too, because I think what you’re doing is much needed and a great conversation to be had, and it needs to be a louder conversation too. So thank you for bringing it here.
Jamie Roberts:
Yeah, it was great to be here. Thanks so much for having me.
Galen Ettlin:
Thanks everyone for listening to the Rebel Instinct Podcast. Be sure to follow Act-On Software for updates and upcoming episodes, and remember to always act on your rebel instinct. Until next time.
Check out the next episode of the Rebel Instinct Podcast here, featuring Justin Keller of Drift. He encourages marketers to get out of the metric weeds and focus on delivering compelling stories and content.