On every episode of the Rebel Instinct, our team sits down with rebels from across the marketing landscape to share stories about bold moves they’ve taken as marketers. Subscribe for more.
Galen Ettlin:
You are listening to the Rebel Instinct Podcast by Acton Software for all the marketing innovators living outside the box.
Time to break some rules, everybody. I’m Galen Ettlin with Act-On Software alongside my VP of marketing, Casey Munck, and Casey with you and today’s guest. I’m in the presence of some true bosses. Heidi Bullock is here, CMO of Tealium and former CMO of Engagio and Global VP of Marketing at Marketo. So awesome.
Heidi Bullock:
Thank you for having me. This will be fun.
Casey Munck:
Yeah, welcome Heidi, and congratulations. I saw you were just named by CMO Huddle as one of the top B2B marketing influencers of 2022. That’s great.
Heidi Bullock:
I know I was very excited and surprised.
Galen Ettlin:
Not to put you on the spot here, Heidi, but what does one have to do to be recognized as one of those influencers? What should we all be doing to emulate that?
Heidi Bullock:
Well, you have to pay people off. No, just kidding. I think the key thing for me is there’s two pieces to it. I think it’s the big message I would say is just remaining curious. And I think when you’re curious, you’re always learning and sharing those learnings with other people. And I think that that’s valued in our community because my number one thing is if I’ve made a mistake or learned something, I don’t want other people to have to make that same mistake over. So I think I am guessing it’s just because I really reach out and help people a lot of the time, and so maybe they put in a good word for me.
Casey Munck:
That’s great. Well, I saw that you studied molecular biology in college, which was really interesting to me. Did, so I was just curious, how did you go from that scientific field to marketing and why? And has that background helped you in your marketing role at all?
Heidi Bullock:
Yeah, so I think for people that know me well, they know I’m a nerd at heart. I am somebody that loves being in Excel. It’s just anything nerdy. I’m pretty much about it. One of the interesting things for me, I did spend a lot of time in the life sciences and I think one of the things that I started to do was I had my sales team that would sometimes come down. I worked at a life sciences company, life technologies at the time, it was in Vitrogen and they would say, Hey, Heidi can explain this in a way that makes sense. Let’s just ask her, let’s ask her. So I think early on I appreciated and understood the impact of taking something that was highly technical or could see maybe confusing. And in MarTech we see that all the time too and translating it into something that people are like, I get it.
It’s simple. And I philosophically believe this. If you understand a concept well, whether that’s physics, calculus, even something in MarTech, if you get it, well, you can explain it in a way that’s going to make sense to anyone. Your mom should be able to understand it. And I think other folks kind of take the strategy of I’m going to use all these acronyms and make it so impossible. So I seem like the smartest person in the room and I don’t believe in that. So I think my ability to do that kind of led me to getting more into product management and then product marketing. And then eventually I ended up running a marketing team actually in the life sciences at a SaaS company. So it was just kind of, I think that ability to make information accessible and honestly telling a good story in marketing, we think a lot about telling it the story externally, but it’s equally important internally if your sales teams and your revenue teams are not getting something, that’s not what we want. We want to make sure they feel comfortable and can sell and they need to be able to understand that material.
Casey Munck:
Totally. It’s all about boiling it down to the simplest form of the message, which takes a lot more time than I think people really give you credit for.
Heidi Bullock:
Sure, that’s right. But I think again, if you can boil it down to what’s in it for the buyer, what’s in it for them, why should I care? I think just some of those simple things can make such a big difference. And we all know in tech that there’s a lack of that.
Casey Munck:
Yes. Lots of jargon going on in this space. For sure.
Heidi Bullock:
For sure.
Galen Ettlin:
And I’m new to this space fairly new as of about three months ago. So I’ve really been hearing a lot of those acronyms and I can definitely hear exactly what you’re talking about of like, okay, how can we translate this?
Heidi Bullock:
That’s right. And to me, you never want somebody, especially your buyer to feel like, oh, that’s stupid that I don’t know that. Or what are they talking about? Or gosh. And I just feel like especially these days, everybody’s very about taking things that are actually somewhat simple in nature, and it’s like, let’s make it more complicated by throwing an acronym or a new name to it and it’s like, you don’t have to do that.
Galen Ettlin:
Well, this probably is a similar answer then, but you’ve really taken the reins and climbed the ranks of big tech companies in Silicon Valley. What would you say was one of your biggest challenges in that journey?
Heidi Bullock:
Probably lack of sponsorship, and I think for a lot of women, especially I think when I was early in my career in product marketing, I very rarely ever would see women above me or certainly report to a female. And so I think in a lot of cases, people are always going to favor what they’re the most comfortable with. Say you’re somebody and you love, I’m just going to make this up. But you love golf and you see a young gentleman on your team and they play golf and it’s like, great, let’s go spend time and do that. But you didn’t even think to ask the female if she liked that or if that’s something that she would want to do or if she didn’t, is there something else that you could do together so you get to know that person and ultimately can help develop them along the way. So I think that I would say the lack of sponsorship, and there’s probably a lot of reasons for it. I’m not somebody that looks at back and says, oh, it was anything malicious or I just think it was, again, it comes down to people are comfortable with what they know, and I think when you’re somebody that’s different in any kind of way, that’s harder for people to know how to relate to you and spend time with you.
Casey Munck:
Yeah, we’ve been learning a lot about unconscious bias in our diversity and inclusion efforts, and it’s been really, really eyeopening. Well, like you said, big tech can be a male dominated industry and it pretty much is, but who were some of the important women that you looked up to and helped you succeed throughout your career?
Heidi Bullock:
I am going to answer this in a few ways. I think first and foremost, I actually tried to focus on just impact in general. I tried not to look at pattern matching and saying, I want to be a particular person and let me follow male or female. I basically always tried to say, what does my boss need to be successful? What can I do to make their life easier and helpful? And I really tried to focus on that because I just think otherwise it would be hard. But I will say that people that influenced me a lot, a few folks come to mind, there’s a group called Women in Revenue, and Tracy Eiler was somebody early on for me that I can remember being at meetings and she just was inclusive. It was that inclusion, somebody who’s like, Hey, take a seat. Just join us at the table.
And me feeling like, wow, I’m part of that. I was being included versus sitting off by myself even if people didn’t know me as well. And I think when other women can do that and the women that have done that for me, and there’s been many, I think that can make just a huge difference. It doesn’t necessarily have to be somebody that’s like, wow, I want to present like them, or they’ve had this career that I want to emulate. But just that feeling of like, Hey, you’re part of this and we’re welcoming you. I would say that she was somebody that stands out. I would also say my mom, because I think that she was somebody that whenever I was frustrated I’d call and she was like, ah, you’ve got this. You’ve had worse problems. I think she was somebody that raised me in a way that was just figure it out. And it’s not a matter of you’re putting in more effort, it’s try to make sure you’re doing the right set of things. Because I think a lot of times people are like, I’m trying. I’m doing all the things. It’s almost like you can all imagine when you’re in college, you’re studying, you’re doing all the things, but if it’s not working, something you need to do is different. And that was advice that she gave me that I feel like was very, very helpful.
Casey Munck:
That’s great. Two different perspectives, but both super important. I love, especially giving young women a seat at the table is so important these days. What’s the most rebellious or out of the box thing that you’ve tried and how did it perform?
Heidi Bullock:
One of my favorite things was a tactic that we tried when I was at Engagio and we were very much focused on target accounts. So this wasn’t a product-led growth company where you’re marketing to a lot of different people and this is very much their key folks that we wanted to meet with. And we did something different at an event, which is interesting for account-based marketing too. We’re like, how can we take this analyst event? It was serious decisions at the time and make sure that we’re being focused and not spending dollars marketing just to everyone across the board, but having a targeted strategy to drive meetings. And we did this thing called Find Your Face, and we had the faces of the people that we wanted to meet with printed out, and they were different folks from companies, large enterprise companies, some of them were analysts, and we put them on sticks, you see it at sporting events, and we sent them a note ahead of time saying, Hey, if you’re at serious decisions, come find your face, come meet us in the booth.
We’d love to talk to you. And so people would come to the booth and get their face on a stick because it’s kind of fun and everyone wants, you’re kind of curious, you’re like, what is this thing? And it’s kind of different. And I know that could sound silly or people could say, wow, that’s kind of weird. But I have to tell you all, we had an 85% meeting rate from doing that. There was only several people that I think because they didn’t attend that didn’t come by. And so we were able to connect with the right people at an event where normally you can’t have is targeted of conversation. And what I like about it was kind of different. It was bold. I mean, we literally looked up people on LinkedIn, printed out their face, found a company that could make these, and it was actually really inexpensive and it was just trying something kind of random and it ended up working really well. I’m not still that one Hadie. Yeah, and it’s a team effort. I can’t take all the credit. There are a lot of people, as you all know. I mean it’s always a team effort that puts those together. But that was a good one, really cute.
Galen Ettlin:
I mean, you’ve already given some great examples of out of the box thinking that also the advice to simple things down a little bit make it more accessible to people. Do you have any other advice for marketers to be a little bit more rebellious in their jobs?
Heidi Bullock:
Yeah, I think to me it’s always about knowing your audience. And so sometimes I see people and they’re like, wow, wouldn’t this awesome TikTok be great? But if you’re marketing to let say 60-year-old folks, maybe it’s a drug and they’re not on TikTok, maybe not. So I always start with know the audience, but then I think that all of us have so much coming at us. So it’s really about how can you stand out in a sea of the same when everybody’s saying the same thing, try something that’s a little different and I’m supportive of it. I think it’s always a matter of, hey, if you have a good premise and you think that there’s an opportunity to do something that’s unique and you can drive a great result, I’m all for that. And I think you should even set aside budget for these kind of tests because sometimes the example I just gave you all, we were like, I don’t know, this could be the worst thing in the world, but it ended up being the best and it was actually really fun and it didn’t cost a lot. So leaving some room to be edgy, experimenting, I think as long as you’re not offending anyone outright, it’s like why not? Go for it. Give it a try. Put together a funny video. Try something that’s a little bit different where people notice you, as long as that maps to what your target audience is looking at.
Casey Munck:
So speaking of risky moves, how do you take a risky move at work and not knowing the consequences? What’s your process for getting that across the finish line and being brave enough to just do the thing?
Heidi Bullock:
Yeah, so I mean of course it’s going to depend on the company in the setting. If you’re in a regulated industry, you can’t be like, woo, wild. Yeah, of course. It’s like it’ll depend. But I think for me, I always start with what is it we’re trying to achieve first? And I always think it’s really important to start with your goal. Hey, we’re trying to ignite a new market segment. We’re trying to retain a particular market segment. We’re trying to do something, know what that goal is first. We’re trying to launch a product and cut through the noise. And then if you have this edgy idea and you have clearly a thoughtful plan around it and it’s like, Hey, we’re going to try this. I think that’s the way to approach it. It’s like, look, we have thought this out. We have a goal in mind.
We have some budget set aside. I think that that’s the best way to do it. And showing that there’s real value and thought there. You can’t just say, we have a random idea, we don’t know why we’re doing it. And I think you always have to, I mean, of course look at the budget and sell the idea to leadership, but I think bold moves are so key. I think if you always copy everyone or do just the same thing over and over and you’re not standing out, I mean that’s tough in marketing unless you have a lot of data that that’s working. But sometimes I think today people, I feel like everyone gets so sick of seeing the same thing. It’s like how can you, even with a proven message, reignite it and get some excitement there without
Galen Ettlin:
Fading into the background
Heidi Bullock:
And not fading into the background? I mean, you can see consumer brands deal with this all the time. How do you keep a detergent exciting? It’s like the people that market detergent and these consumer goods, that’s the hardest job on the planet. It’s making sure that you’re staying top of mind for that brand and doing it in a way, again, it’s got to resonate with that audience. It could be the edgiest thing in the world, but if it’s not what that audience is going to relate to, it’s not going to be good.
Casey Munck:
No, the room for sure. Well, honey, I’m curious. How are your rebel in your non-work life? Are there any ways?
Heidi Bullock:
I think I have a few things there. So anyone that knows me knows I love to dance. And when I hear good music, I mean, let’s be honest, targets, the music’s been fire lately. I go into a target, I’m like, this is my jam, and I might be in the aisle and I might go for it right then and there. You can ask my kids. They’re like, you’re so embarrassing. I’m like, I’m awesome. You guys are that. I’m so full of expression and everyone here is appreciating it. So I think for me, when I hear a good song, it could be a wedding, it could be Target, my dentist office. I can’t hold back.
Casey Munck:
Got to you got to move. Yeah. Such a good year for pop music too. I mean, they’ve just been churning out the hits.
Heidi Bullock:
The hits, yeah. And I just love music. I feel especially, I don’t know, the last few years there’s been a lot of intense topics and a lot of sad things. And music is the one thing that it just lifts everyone up. And when somebody else is appreciating your same jam, that’s a bonding moment.
Casey Munck:
It is. That sounds very joyful.
Galen Ettlin:
Not to go off on a tangent about Target music, but a few months ago when I was in the target aisle and I heard over the loudspeaker a Christina Aguilera song that had never been released in the us, but I love her and I’m like, how do they have this song and Target, target?
Heidi Bullock:
They’re fire. They understand their audience. It’s great.
Galen Ettlin:
They knew I was there.
Heidi Bullock:
They’re like, we’re going to play it.
Galen Ettlin:
Well, Heidi, I’m curious for you, what rebel in our culture do you think needs to be celebrated?
Heidi Bullock:
There’s a few that come to mind, but I’m going to throw out one that I think is important. I don’t know if you’ve heard of Boyan Slat and he’s actually somebody that has created, he’s part of the Ocean Conservatory group, and he has created a really interesting mechanism for cleaning up all the plastic in the ocean and waterways. And if you haven’t heard of him, you’ve got to research this. And he has a big project that he’s very focused on and they use a lot of the materials to then create sunglasses and other things. But to me, I just feel like an area I’m very passionate about is the environment. Because I feel like if we are not doing a good job there, everything else really doesn’t matter, right? It’s kind of like the baseline. We all have to have a clean and healthy planet. And I think he has been bold and he’s doing the thing that I think everyone talks about, but he’s actually doing it. And I just find that incredibly impressive and I really respect it because I think it’s easy for all of us to say, well, gosh, you should do this, or we could do this, but here’s a person that’s just gone out and done it. And that’s remarkable to me. Really, I mean, that’s the best kind of rebel there is.
Casey Munck:
With a cause.
Heidi Bullock:
Yeah, with a cause one that matters.
Casey Munck:
Now it’s time for our ‘honey, I don’t think so’ segment talking about what’s annoying you in marketing or MarTech that needs to stop now. We’re going to be holding you very firm to the 60-second mark. Galen will be counting you down. Are you ready, Heidi, for your ‘honey, I don’t think so’?
Heidi Bullock:
For my ‘honey, I don’t think so,’ It’s copy and paste tactics. Just because something has worked one place doesn’t mean it’s going to work in the next place. You have to make sure you understand your goal and map your tactic to your goal.
Casey Munck:
Wow, that was succinct.
Galen Ettlin:
That was under 10 seconds. She’s on it.
Heidi Bullock:
I hate that. That’s my biggest pet peeve. It’s like, well, let’s just do a webinar. Why understand what it is you’re trying to do before you even you all, you have to have a reason. You have a podcast. There’s a reason, right? And I find that a lot of people just dish out tactics without thinking about the goal drives me.
Casey Munck:
Heidi, thank you so much for joining us today. It’s been a real pleasure. Thanks for all the good advice for the marketers out
Heidi Bullock:
There. You bet. This has been the best time. I’ve loved it.
Galen Ettlin:
Thanks everyone for listening to the Rebel Instinct Podcast. Be sure to follow Act-On Software for updates in upcoming episodes, and remember to always act on your rebel instinct. Until next time.
Check out the next episode of the Rebel Instinct Podcast with Jascha Kaykas-Wolff, president of Lytics with previous executive experience at Mozilla, BitTorrent, Webtrends, Microsoft.